Interview with R. Scott Okamoto
It’s not often that I laugh out loud while reading a memoir, especially one about leaving evangelicalism, but this is exactly what happened when I read R. Scott Okamoto’s book, Asian American Apostate: Losing Religion and Finding Myself at an Evangelical University. His sense of humor and clever language made it such an enjoyable read and helped bring some comic relief to difficult topics. Okamoto writes with such skill and insight about life inside evangelical universities, and I know many will find solidarity and validation in these pages. With that said, I’m so thrilled to share this interview with Scott!
Cait West: Hi, Scott, thank you so much for sharing your story with us! Your book, Asian American Apostate, is such a great read. You write early on in the book about how, when you first started working for an evangelical university, you weren’t planning to stay long. As you write, “But I found myself drawn to the students who reminded me so much of myself at their age.” Can you share a little about what made you stay longer at the college?
R. Scott Okamoto: First of all, thanks for reading the book! In addition to just having a heart for the students in general, I stayed much longer than any sane person would have stayed because I had helped start two student orgs that were really important to me. There was an AAPI club that was always perilously close to shutting down due to lack of interest from the AAPI students and faculty. The few students who did participate, especially the leaders, were passionate about exploring their identities in the face of some pretty brutal racism against them by their peers and by evangelical culture. I was also involved, off and on, with the underground LGBTQIA club. I put my career on the line for them by participating in their meetings and events, so even when they distanced themselves from me because I didn’t want them to come out to the school, I maintained those relationships individually. The idea of leaving felt like abandoning two groups of students that meant the world to me.
CW: What were some of the negative aspects of your job? Were you able to show up as your whole authentic self?
RSO: In a word, no. Especially early on, I just sat quietly in the company of colleagues who I knew were conservative, racist, misogynist, homophobic, etc. There were a precious few colleagues with whom I could be myself, and they were a lifeline to me. I think all educators have to figure out how to be accessible to their students while maintaining boundaries, so I developed a professorial persona for the classroom. The students I worked with in social justice, LGBTQIA identity, and racial identity got to know the real me, for the most part. Other negative aspects were having to bite my tongue when colleagues or administrators said ridiculously awful things. And working as an English professor at a school that valued evangelical indoctrination and morality over academic integrity really sucked. The cafeteria food was bad. It once served something called, “Asian Chicken.” The poor student worker had to endure me asking what kind of “Asian” the chicken was. And just being surrounded by angry conservatives who felt attacked by anything that didn’t subscribe to their views was always tiring. Just teaching argumentation and literature was often a battle.
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CW: One of my favorite parts of the book is when you find belonging at the Tuesday Night Café with other artists and musicians. Can you share briefly what this community was and what it meant to you?
RSO: The Tuesday Night Café is currently in its 26th year and going strong. It was through that community that I found AAPI folks who valued art and activism. More importantly, I found my chosen family there. I just interviewed Traci Kato Kiriyama, the founder of the group, for the 100th episode of Chapel Probation, so folks can listen to that. We talk about Traci finding me at the end of my Christianity and how her friendship showed me a way forward from Christianity. Definitely check out the space. They have an Instagram account, and you can watch the shows online. 1st and 3rd Tuesdays, April through October. I’ve kind of aged out of the center of the scene, but I like going and sitting with the other elders when I can.
CW: I found myself laughing out loud often as I read the book, which doesn’t always happen with books about leaving evangelicalism. Was this an intentional choice to emphasize the humor in a story of struggle? How do you think humor helps us through difficult circumstances?
RSO: Really? I don’t think I used any humor at all. Haha. I appreciate you enjoying the humor. So many people assume AAPI folks are super serious, but I use humor and satire to help make sense of the world and make fun of everything, including myself. And honestly, evangelical culture is so bizarre and uniquely nonsensical that a humorous lens just seems right to look through when talking about it. And overall, I do think humor helps us through difficult circumstances because it can point out the ridiculousness of life. It’s especially important when “punching up” and speaking truth to power. Humor and satire can enlighten us to truth. It can be destructive and abused, too, but I hope it mostly shed light on some of the peculiarities of life and Evangelical Christianity.
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CW: Something that is really powerful about the book is what the back cover calls “the inside story of how America’s evangelical schools encourage not a life of the mind but White cultural power.” You had an insider’s perspective on how this played out at the university you taught at. Why do you think evangelical colleges and churches seem so desperate for this power?
RSO: This has never been more true than it is today. Evangelicalism is now unabashedly White Nationalist. It caters to the worst parts of human nature, creating an in-group (male hetero-Whiteness) and casting everything else as scary and even criminal. So just bringing up race is offensive if it’s not centering and praising Whiteness at a place like APU. At least it was back then. I have no idea why people who subscribe to a religion that teaches “the meek shall inherit the earth,” or that “the love of money is the root of all evil,” or that “love is the greatest commandment,” could subscribe to hateful, power-hungry White nationalism. I just know that they do and are doing so at an alarming rate.
CW: At Tears of Eden, we provide resources for survivors of spiritual abuse within evangelicalism. Do you have any advice for them after your experiences at a white evangelical university?
RSO: Maybe not advice but an exhortation to seek help and support. The deconstruction world is growing online, and while it has some blind spots and even some toxicity, there are resources to connect to. Publications like this are a great place to start. And find your people on the outside of Evangelical culture.
R. Scott Okamoto is a fourth-generation Japanese American writer, podcaster, and musician who lives in Pasadena, CA. He is the author of Asian American Apostate: Losing Religion and Finding Myself at an Evangelical University, the creator and host of the Chapel Probation podcast, and the music director and editor for Axis Mundi Media.
