S5:E7 - Church Cults, Trauma, and Humor with Shanny Payton

Shannon Payton (https://shannypantsshow.com/), known as Shanny Pants by many, is a content creator and podcaster living in Rocklin, California. Although Shannon has a successful career as a Realtor, she has equally enjoyed her hobby of sharing her humor through Instagram with friends and family. In 2020 her video about making school lunches went viral, it opened a whole new world for her. She now has many viral videos and hundreds of thousands of social media followers.

Her podcast, The ShannyPants Show is currently in its second season. In her interview style podcast, Shannon shares her struggles of growing up in a cult, battles through years of infertility that ended in a hysterectomy and finally her journey to parenthood through foster care and adoption.

She enjoys sharing the struggles of life in a humorous way as part of her self-prescribed therapy and through this, has connected with her fans. Her podcast topics include a wide range of subjects which in one way or another relate to something she has been through.

Shannon has been a guest on The Kelly Clarkson show and has appeared on local TV show GoodDay Sacramento multiple times. Shannon is currently writing a memoir and is looking forward to giving her followers a deeper look into her life. When Shannon is asked where she gets all of her ideas for her humorous videos she sarcastically states, “I’m married and have kids, that’s all the inspiration I need for some crazy content”. IG: @therealshannypants @shannypantsshowpodcast

Uncertain is a podcast of  Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

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Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings

 [00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain. Do you ever get to a point where everything is just too much and you just need to take a break? That is kind of how I've been feeling the past few weeks.

Around trauma recovery. And abuse dynamics and sometimes it just gets to be a lot and I just need to take a break. So I had to do that over the weekend a little bit. And this episode, I wanted to put this episode out because, uh, the guest today, Shani Payton is just a super funny human being and is comedian her content on social media is.

So funny and keeps me laughing all day long and I thought that this episode was going to be like this really funny episode because we recorded it. I think back in like December and I listened to it and I was like, Oh, it's not as funny as I thought it was going to be, but there is some laughter. Fear not.

 [00:01:00] Shani Payton is a comedian and has hundreds of thousands of followers. So, so, so, so funny, but she has a darker origin story. She grew up in a church cult, and she has been on her own journey of recovery and healing, and humor plays a role in our healing process, and we do get to that at the end, but we also just talked about the dynamics of control and the impact that it has on us, it's just a really great conversation, and I really like Shani a lot.

I'm going to link to her website in the show notes so you can follow her on all the things. She also hosts the Shani Pants show, which is a podcast. I was recently on the Shani Pants show, I will link to that episode of my conversation with Shani Payton, also in the show notes.

Thanks so much for being here, and if you're having one of those weeks where you just need to take a break, then you know what? [00:02:00] You should. Take a break. Go for a little walk. Have a sip of water. And if you can take a break. for a couple days, sure, just do it. If you can. I highly recommend it. It's good to do that.

All of the abuse and trauma it'll still be here when you get back. Pretty sure about that. Alright, so here is my conversation with Shannie Payton of The Shannie Pants Show.

Katherine: Hello.

Shanny: Oh, it's so good to see you. Good to see you. I'm so

Katherine: excited. Me too. Talk about culty things. Talk about abuse things, but then talk about fun things too and ways that giggling and laughter and jokes help us on this amazing healing process. Where do you hail from right now?

Shanny: Northern California, right around the Sacramento [00:03:00] area.

Katherine: Yeah. I lived in LA for four

Shanny: years, so. Oh, did you? Okay. I'm familiar with the stomping grounds. Oh yeah. Just a quick, you know, nine hour little drive for me. Not

Katherine: bad at all. No big deal. No big deal. I know. I know every, every time I moved someplace, people would say, Oh, do you know so and so? Because they like live in the state and it's like, This is like a massive state.

Other than D. C. where people are like, Oh, my friend blah blah blah lives there. Like, D. C. is so big. No, I have not run into them in the grocery store. No. Well, whenever

Shanny: someone says, you know, whenever It seems like when people say, Oh, California. Oh, do you surf? And I'm like, no, no, I do not surf. Like,

Katherine: like, because

Shanny: it's like how the state is, how long it's like, I live more up in the mountains.

And, you know, versus the coast. And, and then even so there's. So many different [00:04:00] coasts as far as, you know, all the way down to the Bay Area. Yeah. So it's funny, but everyone that's like, Oh, do you surf? No, no, you would not want to see that all the time.

Katherine: Right? Yeah.

Shanny: Quick, quick little weekend trips

Katherine: every, every weekend.

Shanny: But yes, but I do love where we live. It's beautiful. And I, I. Yeah, I really love it. And I grew up here. I've never moved far from home, so I've always been in the area. Yep.

Katherine: Right. All right. Well, I would love to introduce you to folks by hearing your story. The group that you grew up in is very similar to the group that I grew up in with this just very fundamentalist dedication to interpretation of the Bible and I would love to hear what that was like for you growing up and process getting out questioning because you're [00:05:00] not, you're not in it now.

Right. Right. Right.

Shanny: Otherwise I would not be talking to you because you are

Katherine: of the world. I am. We could not communicate. No, no eye contact would be happening. So tell me, tell me a little bit about it. I know a lot of folks in our community are going to really

Shanny: yes, I, so I was born into this cult religious cult and up in Northern California. My parents were also born into it. So we had some generational, you know, fun things. We're just dragging around. And, you know, it started out as from as much as I can understand, talking to my grandparents and other older folks it started out as kind of like a, we're going to go not, not even nondenominational.

It was just like, we're going to do meetings in our home, basically. So I think it started out as a pretty innocent. Kind of fine thing like just Bible studies and in homes and then it's from what I understand. It sounds like in the [00:06:00] 70s late 70s to 80s The his son is now the current leader, but he took over And we'll call him RG.

He, and from that point on is kind of when it became more rule based, fear based and that's when kind of there started to be a lot more things that got put into place and people just kind of, I guess, followed along and went with it. And so in the mid, 80s, there was what we call the split of the 80s, where a large group of people were questioning some of the beliefs and rules and restrictions.

And there was a, we call it marking to be avoided, but like an excommunication. So there was a large group that were excommunicated from us in the 80s because they were questioning and you don't do that. And part of my family,

Katherine: like in a [00:07:00] group, or was it like, we call you in, into the office

Shanny: and it was basically, I mean, I was a kid at the time, but it basically is just public, you know, from the front, you're hearing, and we had a lot of different sex.

So we had like ours up here in Northern Cal, there was four in North, in California. And then we had like Texas, Virginia, Oklahoma, Canada. Mexico. I think that's all of them. So this message would go to everyone because we would get together. We call them camps where people from all different, what we call assemblies would like beat together and hang out.

And so everyone's getting the same announcement basically that these people are marked you are or not to associate with them. And it truly was like, yeah. Oh yeah. Like announcing their name. Oh yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Mark, you

Katherine: are

Shanny: an announcements today.

Katherine: It's very light. We [00:08:00] just

Shanny: have, you're not allowed to talk to your family again.

Oh my God. Yeah. So that happened back in the eighties and I was I was a young kid then and part of my family was marked my dad's sister and her family which she married my dad's best friend. So that was like really hard on my parents. Yes. And it sounds like they were kind of. You know, on the cusp of do we be a part of the marked group or not.

And of course we stayed. But it was really sad because all of a sudden, and you know, as a young child, I'm not allowed to hang out with my cousins anymore. And I was really good friends with the one that was really close to my age, and it was just really confusing and I remember like even as a child, like, Oh, it was awful and you're in like life wasn't confusing enough how we lived.

But I just remember like praying like, please help them get right with the Lord because obviously they've left the will of the Lord and, you know, [00:09:00] because that's what we are taught is they're wrong and they're sinning. And they're a part of the world now, so they're no longer a part of us. What did

Katherine: they, did you ever find out what they got marked

Shanny: for? You know, I don't know. It was really about like, it was like legalistic stuff. Like, even like, so we had to wear like skirts and the women. And the men had to wear pants. So we had to just like kind of rules like that. And I know some of it was around that kind of stuff. Just why do we do this? Like, let's dig in.

Why, why are we doing this? So it wasn't.

Katherine: If you can justify it and give me a logical reason, sure. But if you don't have one.

Shanny: Right. Go ahead and mark us, I guess, because that's what we're going to do, because we obviously don't, they didn't have a reason, you know, it, but that was the thing. You don't question, you just don't, you just follow along like we did for so many years.

But yeah, so it was just about, it was not about anything crazy, nothing [00:10:00] like nothing serious. And like, Nothing even biblical, I don't think, you know, it was more like the rule side of things. So, but that was really hard on my family. I know. And yeah. It was really sad, but that's, but kind of growing up, that's kind of like a little bit of the background of how this group started.

But growing up in it, it was, like I said, it was just a lot of rules, very fear based where like, I'd never went to, we, and we were, so we had no name. Our church group cult had no name. And that was because you wouldn't, if you follow a follower of God, you wouldn't. You wouldn't need a church name. The church is the, the body of people, right?

It's not a building. So we would meet in Grange Halls or people's houses and we would never take a name, which was really fun explaining to people at school as a kid when they're like, what church do you go to? And you're like I don't know. [00:11:00] Yeah. So we literally had a concerted

Katherine: effort to be different.

Shanny: Oh, for sure. Yeah. Oh,

Katherine: that's super confusing because you don't have an identify. No. Wow.

Shanny: It was, it was very interesting. So we did grow up. So we would go to meetings at Grange halls in our assembly here. There was, I'm guessing about like 100, 150 of us, maybe in this area. And our assembly, most people were homeschooled.

We did go to public school, me and my sisters. And there was a really tiny little public school right by a Grange Hall where we met. And so a couple of the other families went there as well. And it was awful going to school with cult people because they would call you out. Like my parents, we were always in trouble because my parents were a little bit more on the like.

Rebellious side, I would say, like my dad would wear shorts at home. They would let us wear pants at home. And [00:12:00] we were like constantly in trouble. It seems like but we did go to school with a couple of other families that went to our meetings as well. Were they reporting you? Yes, they would not only would they report us, but like when we were younger in like grammar school, they one of them was in my grade.

So it was a little school. So we all are together. And he would, like, we would be doing like a craft project, like making Santa magnets, because it's Christmas, we didn't celebrate any holidays. I probably should point that out. No holidays. Oh, yes. , he would like raise his hand.

And be like, teacher, teacher, teacher, Shannon and me cannot make the magnets. And I'm just like, Oh,

Katherine: here we go again. So pretty much don't

Shanny: celebrate Christmas. No, so we cannot make felt Santa magnets. Oh, yeah. So that was fun. And then like everything else in grammar school, I and I [00:13:00] was such an uncomfortable child.

I was so confused looking back. I know now that I was. I was very anxious and depressed my whole entire years growing up and at the time I just, you know, Oh, I'm shy or whatever. So, but we, so another thing in school though, that's really fun is because we didn't celebrate holidays whenever they were like singing songs or because you know how it is like, and maybe it was more that way back when we were in school too, but like you would, the school would sing Christmas carols and put on a little thing for the parents and all that.

So whenever they were practicing Christmas carols or any holiday, anything, we, all of the cool people, kids would go to the library and hang out and literally just sit there. Being bored. Just hanging out in the library while everyone else is having fun. And, and we had to do that during sex education as well.

Because we, of course, right,

Katherine: right, [00:14:00] right.

Shanny: Because, because we don't need to learn about our bodies. Like we are different. Yes,

Katherine: exactly. Oh my goodness. And that was awful. Just like, it's so isolating.

Shanny: Oh, so much. So

Katherine: much. Contributing to this, like. Set apartness nature that is characteristic of so many cults of like, we are better.

Yeah. Oh yeah. We're gonna do this like separatist thing to like show that we are better. Yep. And it's not life giving. It is not making your life better. It is simply for the sake of Being separate and, and yeah, and, and separating yourselves from

Shanny: the

Katherine: world. Everyone. Yes. Yes. The people who are not enlightened.

Shanny: Yeah, exactly. Yes. And it was, it was so separate. And like I was saying earlier too, there's no we didn't have a name and for us even. All churches were [00:15:00] bad. Like it wasn't like, Oh, cool. Every, you know, these people are believers, but they just don't meet with us. No, no, no. Like if they don't meet with us.

They're doing it wrong and they're not the right kind of believers. So that was hard to just because again at separation, like I remember one time some of the guys like my age when we were, I don't even know. Yeah. I guess we were teens cause they would have had to be driving. They went to this teeny tiny church that was like on the way to the meeting hall.

They just wanted to like see what the church was like a real church. And they like went in, sat on the back row. And well, someone found out and so they all got rebuked and they had to like, they have to stand up. Like anytime you get in trouble, you'd have to stand up front for going to a church just to

Katherine: visit.

You just be like, I wonder what a church

Shanny: is like. So yeah. So you can imagine all of the [00:16:00] things that Got rebuked from up front. If that got rebuked, it's always, we would call it like rebuke all we would laugh and be like, Oh, you got rebuked the day.

Katherine: Oh my goodness. And, and that's just, I mean I can imagine you were probably just so terrified, like,

Shanny: of

Katherine: like getting in trouble.

What's it going to be. And yep. And it sounds like your family wasn't quite like that, but the community itself was just right. Surveillancy and watching everything you did.

Shanny: Very much, very much. And that's where, and, you know, we had. I'm very thankful for our family like now we're like, good job dad way to be rebellious because we were raised, you know, people say like how did you turn out normal and I'm like, Thank you for calling me normal.

And also our family I feel like how we were raised in our home.[00:17:00] Did. allow us to be somewhat normal. And that's why maybe we're normal today. But we, like I said, we would could wear what we wanted at home. We would sneak movies like we, I remember watching Anna Green Gables because no one, we weren't allowed to watch any TV movies, nothing.

So we would do things like that, that. A majority of people would never, ever have done. We went to Disneyland. We'd get in trouble for it, but we would go. So there was some things, yeah, there were some things that we did that I think made us, allowed us to be a little bit more normal, but you still have that influence.

And then even when we were doing these normal things, you still have that fear of, well, we're having fun at Disneyland, but if they find out what's going to happen, so there's always that, like, even though you can fully

Katherine: enjoy because you're, you're having to hide, hide. And yeah, absolutely. [00:18:00] Yeah, I just, I'm really, really curious how Well, first of all, I like relate a lot with the story.

There are different flavors of it in my upbringing. We home church most of the time, and there wasn't like a, you can't go to church, but there was definitely. This belief that those people were not as solid of Christians as we were and weren't as on fire for God as we were. And we would go visit churches and no church was ever good enough.

And on the way home, we would have roast pastor and my father would just like shred the sermon apart. Like make sure we knew that what was taught there was. Not accurate and not biblical and watered down and whitewashed and that just like very like, oh, we watched films, but there were like so many films that were like off limits.

And [00:19:00] so I remember doing the sneaking thing like when I go out of town, I would go to the library and I would like check out all the movies. The more nudity, the better. And I was just like, just like. Get it all in and also just living with terror that they were going to find out. Oh yeah. Having books that I like hid under my mattress and read after I knew my parents were already in bed.

So they weren't going to be like making the rounds to like check in. And not just that fear of like, like what if and about stupid, stupid stuff. Right. Oh yeah, like it was so dumb that that was like a sign of character or your devotion to God like it just it was so dumb. And so I'm curious, you said that it was like the son of like a leader that eventually came to power and started implementing these rules.

Do you remember? Like [00:20:00] how he got people because it wasn't quite so stringent, like how he got people to do that. Was it like a slow accommodation? Do you remember? I,

Shanny: I don't remember because I was very young at the time. I was. Like born during that time. So I don't remember exactly. I'm sure it was a very slow progression for as many people as they did keep.

But like I said, in the eighties, there was that split of where, you know, people were questioning and that was when he had taken over. And so obviously there were enough people that wanted to stand up to him. And then it took, gosh, 30.

20 more years before another group finally decided this is BS and we're done. So so it was, I'm sure again, I don't really know, but it sounds like it was a slow progression where, and I think when it very first started, it was so long ago that society was different. You know, it was normal [00:21:00] for women to wear the dresses.

It was normal. You know, that was. A normal thing. And then as time moves on and society is changing, we had to stay basically. So it's like you're frozen. And, and then I think that's kind of, I mean, I'm imagining that's what happened is it kind of, Oh, well, it's a rule now. So, and so much of around it. And especially when I think about the men that led overall and still are I think it's a power trip, you know, and they want that control.

They want that power. And they're so prideful that they cannot say, let's, let's take a look at that. I don't know. Yeah, you're right. Let's question it. They're so prideful. And it's so sad because you think, well, gosh, that was 50 years ago. Can we not take a look at that and maybe dissect it a little and decide should we still believe that?

But they're so afraid to be wrong, I think. And I know that that's been a big learning thing for me since being out is realizing [00:22:00] how ingrained that is in me. Like So, I'm mortified of being wrong and, and again, I look back to my childhood. I would never speak up in class or, and it was because I was so embarrassed to be wrong.

And I think that was a huge, is a huge thing that I still deal with. And then also it taught the opposite, I think of what they wanted us to learn, but it taught us to be super good at hiding things. We were like, like you were saying, hiding stuff under your mattress. It was like, you knew. How to hide things.

And it was like, they forced you to be really good at it. And, and then not only were you hiding things physically, maybe, but emotionally you, all you did was stuff. You're feeling stuff, stuff, stuff, never revealing the true you. And so as an adult, you know, now you're trying to figure out like, who am I? And, you know, raising my kids different [00:23:00] and It's, but it's been hard.

It's crazy how ingrained that is. Like, it's just, you know, you sit under that. I was 31 when we got out. So 31 years of sitting in those metal chairs.

Katherine: Yeah. And the difference for you, as opposed to folks who join cults later in life. And, and this is my experience as well, is you're trying to rebuild a self.

When you never had a self to begin with, and you don't have this memory of baseline like this thing that I can return to, even though you experienced the trauma of being in that high control group, you're. Inevitably altered, possibly forever, you, you still have that thing to like, remember, like, I remember what it felt like to have desires and pursue them and to think well of myself and not think, you know, horrible thoughts about myself.

But if you never [00:24:00] knew that, it's hard. It's really hard to, like, recreate a sense of self

Shanny: if you just, yeah, right. Well, and, and even if you did have desires or things you wanted to pursue, it was wrong. So you would feel guilty about having that idea. Like I, women weren't allowed to go to college and I wanted to be a nurse so bad.

And, you know, and that's something I've, I never did. I never followed through with because, you know, by the time I got out, I had kids and, you know, life moves on. But I, you know, it's, it's one of those things that it's like, I felt guilty for wanting to do that. And I knew it wouldn't happen. Like, but

Katherine: so sad.

Yeah. And then, and you feel like Things were stolen from you and yeah, just yeah, and I just, I also just like kind of want to go back to you and mention like these men who like can't be wrong. And I feel like there's a difference between like those men who can't be wrong. And, and [00:25:00] fear of being wrong and like that.

Yes, you know that I experienced that too. This happened like a few months ago. I'm on an improv team and we had a show and I had a bad show. Like I was really tired. I had something really stressful and work happened like right before the show and it wasn't a great show and it just happened to be a show where some of my friends came to watch and it was the first time I had friends.

Watching and it wasn't my best show. So it was like this experience of like, wasn't my best show. This is the first time they're seeing it. They don't know that that wasn't the best thing that I could do. I went on this massive shame spiral for probably 48 hours. And it was really intense. And I knew in my head, this isn't that big of a deal.

Who cares? Have a bad show. Whatever. And it took me a while to unpack just kind of the threads of like, I just grew up in an environment where it was not safe to fail. [00:26:00] And like being wrong was dangerous. And I always felt that way, like, when I was in, like, church situations, and I would get in trouble for something, or get caught out for something, and I would get super defensive, and of course, it's perceived as arrogance that I got defensive, when in reality, it was a trauma response, and I would hate fighting, or, or flighting.

Yep. Because I felt unsafe and I felt it couldn't, it couldn't, it wasn't just, oh, a mistake. Mistakes were dangerous in the world that I grew up in. And, and then there's the, the very arrogant people who actually can't be wrong. Right. They're actually, they're just, they're just human beings.

Shanny: Right.

They just think that they're above human beings and are better than everyone. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I liked that you pointed out that difference because. It's very true. And I think, you know, thinking of like our group and my family in it, there it's, you were, you were afraid to be wrong. And [00:27:00] someone has asked, I forget who it was, was asking something about like the family dynamic and, and the, and the group dynamic.

And it's almost like it didn't even matter what your home life was like with what the group was pushing on you. Because It was such a strong, powerful, fear based thing that, because we had, I had a friend from high school that actually ended up joining our group, and And while she was in high school, so this poor girl by herself or with her family by herself.

Oh, wow. Yeah. She was having like some, some stuff going on at home and found the group and poor thing. What a disaster. And, and, you know, I know you probably talk about this all the time too, but there always is something or can be something that draws someone in. And like for her, it was that sense of community and the family and the love and dah, dah, dah, everything you see from the outside.

Right. That. Besides how we dressed that might be appealing. And and so [00:28:00] she started coming and then within, I mean, honestly, a couple of visits, it was, well, you need to start wearing skirts now and like almost immediately, but I just get so sad for people like that because it's like. You know, maybe home wasn't exactly great, but then you come to this other environment that you think is what you need.

And then you're just destroyed, like, yeah, so, so sad how many lives and I mean what they put the, we called ourselves young people, like when we were young teens but what they put the young people through is. Awful. Like the amount of, Oh, they just so fear and shame based like, Oh, but they bring you up front.

Like if you were caught for anything, basically bring you up front, rebuke you and you'd have to confess, which never were real, of course, because none of us really, we're sorry. And just, but yet also [00:29:00] if you had the right last name and you were in the right position. You would be spared from that. So like someone in one of a girl I grew up with, her dad was, you know, on the list of good people or whatever.

And she had an affair with a married man outside of our group. And it was pushed under the rug and I'm like, Oh my God. Like, and, and, and there was enough of us that knew about it, that it was so damaging. Like that whole concept of like, Oh, she gets away with it. And yet you're dragging everyone else up front and making them confess that they.

Made a mistake. Like, oh my gosh. So it was very hands at

Katherine: home. And yeah, exactly. Oh my goodness. Yeah, because the about like they they'll say this is about like character and, you know, being a godly person, but really it was about elitism [00:30:00] and controlling people which is I mean, that is what those rules are for.

They sell it to you as if it's for your good, but it's not. It's really just to keep you in line and to keep you subservient. Woof!

Shanny: Goodness. Yeah, they did, they did, they did real good at that.

Katherine: Real good. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, like, that happens with a lot of folks who have families. Of origin that just aren't safe and they go to the church, they migrate to the church as like that surrogate family and, and then if they experienced that abuse and that control within that second family, it causes so much damage because most of the time you're internalizing that and thinking it's your fault.

Like, right. This didn't work out because of something wrong with me. It didn't work in my family and it didn't work in the second family. And it's just very very shame based and, and [00:31:00] just, and can cause so much damage. And I'm actually kind of sort of researching that a little bit of the difference between Like someone who experiences abuse when they're an adult in a religious context versus someone who experiences it in a religious context when they came from a family that wasn't stable and wasn't safe.

And like the impact that that has on their faith experience. Yeah. When they didn't have any foundation versus having a foundation and, and what are the, what are the chances? Like, like what, and it's kind of just like abuse in general, if you, except like if you experience abuse as a child, you're more likely to experience it statistically as you get older.

And like, what foundation does a family play? In, in creating someone who retains their faith after abuse versus not anyway,

Shanny: [00:32:00] yeah, and it's so interesting and I think I just did an interview actually the other day with someone who's probably about 10 years older than me from, from my cult and he joined.

And so. He just recently had written a book and so I'm like, I want to have you on the podcast, but I never really knew his story. You know, he was older than me that I'd never, you know, I was a kid or whatever. So it was really interesting, but that's how it was for him. You know, he was incarcerated at 17, had a really rough, you know, life, met someone from this group.

And then what happened is he met a girl who, you know, he falls in love with or whatever. And that's what made him stay. And so then, you know, 30 years later, three kids, adult kids later, he's Getting his family out of the cult, you know, so it's like, and I think so many like that is one of the reasons. And for us, you, you married within your group.

It wasn't like you [00:33:00] went outside of it to get married. And there were a few that came in and it was, I feel so bad for them. And it was so hard.

Katherine: The same for the men to like, they were not allowed to marry outside either.

Shanny: Yeah, they would marry within. Yeah. Yeah. And. But like, so I was mentioning earlier, we would have these like big camps and so we didn't celebrate holidays.

So anytime there was a holiday, we had to be together as a group. So you know, they don't want you to be tempted to like, you know, go look at Christmas lights or anything. So we would have these big camps and the, one of the biggest ones was here in California central California. So we would all drive down there.

Or fly or whatever, get there. And there'd be like, you know, over a thousand people just having meetings all day, basically. It was awful, awful. I hated it. And, but that's where you would kind of. Look for your mate, you know, because it was like, and you, and [00:34:00] you would only see these people maybe a couple times a year.

So you're going to lock it down.

Katherine: Huh. Huh. Before someone else does.

Shanny: Exactly. So it was always like a competition. Like, you know, you're out there on your roller skates skating around and you're like, ah, he's mine. But, but that's where, at 12 years old, I knew who I was gonna marry. And you, and you did, just because it was like, oh, I like him, he likes me, we connect.

And we didn't date, you didn't court, you just liked them. So, yeah, and so I got married at 19. I really wanted to be out of high school before I got married, so I was kind of old. At 19, but yeah, but I really want to get

Katherine: married before they graduated high school. Oh yeah, yeah,

Shanny: like I was engaging

Katherine: high school or were they told, you don't need

Shanny: to finish.

Well, a lot were homeschooled, so I don't, they probably just finished early would be my guess, probably but I feel like, yeah, I don't really know. I know [00:35:00] all the. Yeah. The ones that went to public, I think all finished, but but yeah, so that was fun. So then, yeah, I married young and it was, it was real interesting, real interesting, but yeah.

Katherine: What was the role that like Oh, I want to get into the humor stuff. Like we haven't Oh but was, was there at like, Some kind of camaraderie, simply because you both believed the same things when you got married, or was it like way more complex than they ever gave you credit for?

Shanny: Like why we got married?

Katherine: Well, I was just kind of thinking about the dynamics after you got married.

Shanny: Like, oh, it was, or was it just, Oh no, it was awful. Total disaster. Total disaster. You know, cause you, you live with your parents until the night you're married. It's the first night you ever are away from home. So in the preparation, like even, you know, like churches will do like premarital counseling or you know, something to kind of prepare you if it's like, you [00:36:00] know, like the purity culture and all that.

Like, I feel like they still try to prepare you for marriage. We had nothing, nothing. We would meet with the leader a couple of weeks before you got married. They take you to dinner, him and his wife. Give you this little pamphlet that basically, you know, is like, well, as long as the wife submits to the husband, everything goes great.

And so like, that's your, that's, that's your sex education right there. Luckily, my parents were way better and did like talk to us, but not a ton. And it was always super awkward. So like me with my kids, I'm like, we talk about everything. Yeah. But, and then they, he would recommend, and this is no joke.

That to get a thing of Vaseline.

Which is not creepy at all, coming from this old, crusty, nasty person. And did you know why?

Katherine: Were you like, why? Yeah, yeah, I, I did, yes. Okay. But,

Shanny: but it's like, that's it. Like, [00:37:00] for, I guarantee you, a majority of people that got this talk did not know why.

Katherine: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. . Mm-Hmm. It's

Shanny: just like, so would I, why would no.

Right. Like oh, that seems weird. Mm-Hmm. .

Katherine: For my, I know, I know a lot of people from the community that I grew up in knew nothing about anything like that and had. dry sex dry course, you're supposed to have lube. I'm like, so sad. Like, I'm like, so, so, so, so sad that that was their first experience. You know, just like, Oh, yeah.

Yes. But that is really creepy, too. Oh,

Shanny: so creepy. So creepy. But yeah, and even as you know, aside from the sex part of it, No, no knowledge of living with another person, even, you know, like you've never lived with a roommate and learned how to share, you know, nothing, all the little things. Yes. So it was hell.

It was honestly like, and I, we're still married [00:38:00] which is amazing, but it has not been easy. Yeah. And it has been like, we've had to work really hard to stay married. And. And so many have been divorced that have gotten out, you know, that I grew up with and I don't blame them. Like, I'm like you shouldn't have ever been married.

Yeah. So, I mean, none of us should have. So yeah. So it's been. Extremely hard. So no, because we were brought up the same way, grown up, did not, did not, we did not, yeah, it did not help here. It was awful. No community, like we did not know how to communicate. And again, you know, when you're an individual person and we're talking kids, we were married as kids, you're, you're already internalizing everything.

And so To all of a sudden start sharing things with someone you didn't that's not a

Katherine: natural thing to do They wanted you to have like an intimate relationship with your partner or they did. Well,

Shanny: I mean, I don't think they cared They didn't really care. I don't think [00:39:00] but like I think as a human you want to I mean, I definitely knew like This isn't right.

Like I want more. I thought, well, you just don't even know. You don't know what marriage is going to be like. I had no expectations really, because I didn't, I didn't know. So it was rough and it's been 23 years now, but we made it this far.

Katherine: Okay. What do you think? What do you think kept you like preserved?

Shanny: Things. Well, for God, I don't know. Were you attracted

Katherine: to

Shanny: your spouse? Yes. Oh yeah. Oh, and he is adorable. When we were young, he was so cute. And I mean, he's very handsome. He's yeah. And you know what? Honestly, he's the best one. Like you actually know, we really liked each other and he we've always, and this is, I think, honestly, what has kept us together is we've always been really good friends.

And so like, There was a time in our marriage where it was [00:40:00] just like, okay, maybe, maybe friends is what we're meant to be. Maybe that's it. But we've always been such good friends. And then, we went through so many other things after we were married. Like, we did like, went through like, three years of infertility treatment.

And then we ended up adopting our kids. And those were very traumatic experiences, both of them. And, so, I think Because we had so much other trauma happening, we kind of clung to each other because of that, but I would say it never was like our marriage was awesome during that. It wasn't like, Oh, I feel so supported.

It was like, when I look back, like on the years of infertility, I felt very alone, very alone, even from him, because we didn't know. Like that was years into being married. We still did not know how to really love each other, you know? So I think it's only been probably the last. And it's been four or five years that we really finally [00:41:00] put in the work and made some new commitments to each other and decided, okay, it's either we're done or we need to make some changes.

So, and we have and we, we're happier now than we've ever, ever been. So that's great. And I'm so thankful for it. And he's such a good dad. And so. Yeah, now, now everything's great, but it took us, you know, almost 20 years to get there.

Katherine: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for sharing that because I know it's a vulnerable thing to talk about.

Yeah. I feel like I'm encountering more and more stories like that where it ends or there's this really difficult period where they're like assessing like. Yeah, yeah. It's going to work right in your conditioned marriage is what you're going to do. And then you do really young and you have kids really young.

So then you're like really locked in and, and a lot of your choices get taken away. And so having to [00:42:00] like, Make those choices once you're already in it it's really excruciating. So thank you very much for, for sharing. And then as we have a little bit of time left, I really want to talk about by it was so fast and I was so enthralled and kept asking questions.

Yeah, I want to know the role that humor played in your journey and continues to play and your healing journey, recovery journey, your escape journey. Did it play a role in your escape journey?

Shanny: So not so much. But I've always been like my mom's a real funny person. So like when we would do I'm going to try to keep this fast, but when we would do like camps and stuff, we would put on skits.

We always got in trouble because we pushed the envelope, you know, like we always did, but we were, we were like kind of the funny ones, but it was always still so fear based. Cause I remember you'd be so nervous up there knowing what you're going to do is hilarious. And then no, you're going to get talked to afterwards because you went too far.

But so we were always kind of the funny ones. And [00:43:00] Like me and my mom and there was a little group of us, but then when it, when it was time to get out, basically what happened then it was not humor, it was a group of like pretty much our age people and then a lot of our parents started questioning thing like back in the 80s and we pushed harder.

And so. Basically, the cult broke apart, a majority left, they're still, they're still continuing on a little bit everywhere, but a majority of the cult broke apart and we slowly just kind of, everyone went their own ways, kind of. Yeah. So, it was more of a. Just disintegration of it than anything else. Luckily my whole family is out.

My husband, his parents are still in, so that's a little weird. But, but yeah, and it's still causing so much damage. Like it's absolutely disgusting. So hard to

Katherine: watch. It's

Shanny: awful. It's awful. But after that, after getting out very confusing, you know, for us, all churches were bad. [00:44:00] So we really didn't know what to do.

You know, you're kind of just out on your own for the first time as an adult, but not really, because we were so like stunted socially and emotionally. So it was hard. It was a long journey. And it's been 11, 12 years now. And so it's been a long journey. And like I said, we really have just dug in the last like four years as far as doing some real healing.

Yeah. On ourselves and on our marriage, but humor, you know, I've always been kind of this funny ish person and I really started, it was during COVID really when I started doing Tik TOK, Instagram, these like little videos and stuff, and I started feeling a little bit more confident and a little more free with doing it.

And I had always felt even a little bit uncomfortable. What's the word? I don't know, even for my husband to see because again, we, you know, we went, but we had just been through this like big, huge, like, we're going to make some changes. And so it kind of gave me some confidence, like, [00:45:00] Oh, he doesn't really care.

Like even if he doesn't think it's funny, he doesn't care. So it gave me that boost to start doing that. And as I was. And I realized doing these videos and connecting with people online, I realized how much, how healing it was for me and, and it, you know, and I really, at first, didn't think of it that way.

It was just like, yeah, let's do this. It has been the, like, such a huge part of my healing at this point, just realizing, like, yeah, we've dealt with a lot of shit over the years, like, a lot, but it doesn't mean we have to live the rest of our lives, you know, depressed and sad, and I deal with a lot of A lot of a depression a lot, but, but I, this, the humor drags me out of it, you know, and it's like having other people kind of validate like, Oh, you're funny.

It's not like I, in a, like, Oh, I need to be validated kind of way, but it [00:46:00] just, it prompted me to continue. And You know, and now I love it. It's what I, and then I just, you know, it brought me to connect with people like you. I mean, I never would have been connected with so many of people I call friends now if it weren't for that.

And it really connected me to like so many others in cults and from high control groups. And I've created these like amazing relationships and. Support and people like you that I can listen to and that help with the healing and the growth part of this journey, because it sucks, but the humor we, we have to laugh,

Katherine: we have to laugh.

Shanny: Yeah. I just can't even imagine not. Because it would not be good.

Katherine: Yeah. And I love that you highlighted the connection that the humor provides, because I think the humor is great no matter what, but when you're laughing with someone, that like connection and that intimacy that is created when you're laughing [00:47:00] together, like that is so special.

And I think, I don't know if this was your experience, but I, I just remember times laughing. Afterwards, after like leaving an abusive church now like five years ago, I guess and like laughing and having this belly laugh and then just being surprised. That I was able to laugh and like, Oh, I haven't done that in a really, really, really long time.

Like, I didn't really remember that I could do that, could access that. And it's so, it's so freeing in and of itself and so healing to be able to access that. And. And I, I, I also think like, I don't know if this was your experience growing up, but we, we were so conditioned to be working on ourselves. Was that part of your upbringing?

Like be better, be a better [00:48:00] person. Like really? I don't, I think it was more, just listen, just listen to me, please just listen and do whatever

Shanny: they wanted you to be a good Christian, you know, like you need to be A good example in the world. You should always be an example for anyone in the world that sees you.

So, I mean, I guess a little bit. Yes.

Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that that can like translate to trauma recovery of like, Oh, I need to always be healing. And I need to always be doing these things that will help me heal. And we need to take a

Shanny: break. Yes. Thank you for saying

Katherine: working on ourselves. Have a good time.

Shanny: Thank you. Yes. And it's so true. And like, even part of that is the whole, like, goes back to the perfectionist part and being afraid to do anything wrong and, you know, being defensive and all of that. You're right. It's like, sometimes I, I want to be so good at healing, you know, I'll even have therapy sessions where I'm just like, Oh, [00:49:00] no, everything's great.

How are you? You know,

Katherine: she's like, nope, this is your turn. And I'm like, great, that was your day. You got nothing today. Like,

Shanny: cause I just want to be a good therapy goer, you know?

Katherine: I just want to be good at it. I want to be her favorite client.

Shanny: I do. I want to be teacher's pet. Oh my gosh. Yeah. No, no, no damage done here at

Katherine: all.

I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. Well, I'm really glad that we got to laugh together too. I know. Chatting. It has been, it's been really fun. And I'm, I'm really glad that we met. Me too. In person.

Shanny: I know. We're gonna do it again.

Katherine: Together. So it was real, like it

Shanny: really happened. It really did. I'm Yeah, that was amazing to meet you and so many others.

I like, I just treasure that whole weekend. I was just like, Oh my gosh. It was so good.

Katherine: It was so [00:50:00] good. It was such a great weekend. It's like, I still like, even now, got a little ball of sunshine in my, in my heart at the moment. But, and for folks who don't know what we were talking about. Yeah, sorry. The fact that Tears of Eden had a retreat con.

I got out, had a story jam. We kind of meshed them on the same weekend in St. Louis. That's where I met Shani in person. Yes. And we have been the best of friends ever since.

Shanny: And forever more. Yeah. Forever more. As long as I'm the favorite. You know, I

Katherine: have to be the best. I have to be the best. Yes.

We'll sign a contract later. Okay. Perfect. Oh, I love it. Goodness. All right. Well, I'm gonna end this interview. All right. Thank you so much.

 Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is from the band Green Ashes.

 I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. And if you have, [00:51:00] please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.