S5:E4 - Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month: Thriving After Spiritual Abuse - with Connie Baker

Connie Baker, LPC author of Traumatized by Religious Abuse and a therapist who works with survivors of religious trauma, joins Uncertain to discuss what thriving might look like after Spiritual Abuse. This is a nuanced subject, intended to provide hope (not pressure!).

Thank you for joining us for Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month in 2024!

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Transcript is unedited for typos or misspellings

[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain. It's Spiritual Abuse Awareness Month, and this is our last episode of January 2024. My guest today is someone who It has become very, very special to me. Her name is Connie Baker. She is a therapist. She has a book for survivors of religious abuse. And Connie was our very first guest speaker at our very first in person event.

Back in October, and it was phenomenal. She can speak to the survivor experience in such a meaningful way because she is one. And she's been doing this work long before I even heard of spiritual abuse.

She has so much knowledge and I trust her to address this subject of thriving after spiritual abuse with nuance and care because nobody wants to be pressured [00:01:00] into thriving when you're just trying to survive and that's not the point of this episode but this is a glimmer of hope for down the road that maybe someday maybe someday We will be here.

 Here is my conversation with Connie Baker.

Katherine: Hello, Connie. How are you?

Connie: Good. So fun to see you, Catherine. I'm so

Katherine: excited to see you again. For our listeners, Connie was our guest speaker, keynote speaker at the RetreatCon, which was Terzian's very first in person event in the fall. She was phenomenal. I loved every moment of her. Connie's talks, but then also just getting to hang out with this person.

So if you have a chance to buy her book and oh shoot, I'm totally blanking on the name of your book. What

Connie: is it? It's right, Traumatized by Religious Abuse. Yes. Say it one more time. Traumatized by Religious Abuse.

Katherine: Beautiful.

Wonderful. Amazing book. Very, very, very practical. A lot of folks [00:02:00] have named your book is just very practical for survivors. And one of the things that we invited Connie to do at the retreat con was speak about. Yeah. thriving after spiritual abuse, which I think so many of us are surviving. Maybe we're healing.

We don't really talk about like that moment when you get a chance to just kind of come out of that survival space and laugh. And have fun and see the sun and, and it seems impossible sometimes that we'll ever get to that place. Yes. But, but Connie, Connie is really great about making that realistic. Not, that's, that's what I think I loved about it.

It's not fluffy and silver linings. It's realistic and I learned so much from your talk. So I'm really excited to get to jump into that again. to just get us started and sort of lay a [00:03:00] foundation for discussing what it's like to thrive after spiritual abuse after we've been through this. Could you paint a picture for us of what the impact of spiritual abuse feels like?

Like, what does that look like to someone? Oh,

Connie: yes, yes, I can. Yes, I can. And before we go there, Catherine, I just want to say, I am so thrilled that that was the first retreat. Like, in other words, others are following. It was so, and I know you probably talked about this in follow up podcasts after the retreat, but it was powerful having all those humans.

And I think there was also extra power in it post, well, post late pandemic, whatever we're calling this thing for people to to. Humanly be in the same space and connect. I think, well, Terry, just remembering it, it just was so [00:04:00] powerful. And so I'm just thrilled that you are hosting. Cause we talked about this when I was there.

We both have hosted big events before, you know, in our life. And I know what it takes to put something like that on. What was there 25, 30 people somewhere in that range, you know, and, and to have that. And the spaces that you. Provided anyway, I just want everybody to go to second annual. Yes, everybody to thank you so much.

Yeah, no, I just I'm just reflecting thinking back just with you even, you know, yes, just being here with you. Remembering just the. Goodness. And all the things that happened there.

Katherine: Yeah, I, I've, I felt all of those things too. And just was just so thrilled at, I mean, I just like picture that weekend and it's like surrounded and like sunlight and warmth in my mind.

Like that's the image. It was just such a warm. Just, oh, [00:05:00] and then that whole idea of thriving after spiritual abuse, like we got to taste it, this can be real. This isn't fake. This isn't this isn't false positivity. This is genuine, you know, just joy, like an experience of joy.

And the fact that like, oh, after all, all of us have been through, you know, And in this room and we're laughing together. Like it was just like, Oh, we

Connie: laughed so much. Oh my gosh. And you brought a lot of that. You and your leadership team are just pretty damn funny. And we had a lot of fun with that. And so, yeah, I just wanted to say that when you're talking about that connection, because it really, it really was, I'm just like, no, y'all sign up for number two, second annual Be there.

Katherine: So be there for the second one. Absolutely.

Connie: Exactly. Exactly. So anyway, the question he asked me, what is it? What is the impact of spiritual [00:06:00] abuse? Oh my goodness. I think, I think a lot. In fact, we talked about this at the retreat. I think a lot in life domains. I think it helps break down sometimes. Like what is What is happening to me?

Because it just feels like an avalanche. It feels like you are rolling down the mountain in an avalanche and you can't see what's up down, you know. So I guess I think about, you know, different domains of life spiritually. Oh, let's, let's take Let's take the explosion 1 right off the bat. It can not not have an impact spiritually.

And that doesn't mean that you're for sure going to walk away from the faith, although that absolutely could and sometimes should be what a person does. That's it. It's not just permission. It's like, no. You find your path. But there's a big [00:07:00] range of what that means, means, but there is no way there is not huge levels of damage, spiritually.

It's like existentially, let's take God out of the mix, even, if you're, it doesn't matter whether you say, Whoa, I'm not about this God thing anymore. You still have to rewrite meaning purpose. Life after death, the, the, the, what is a human being? I mean, you just gotta rewrite all that. It's just huge.

So there again, spiritually, it, it can be devastating. And often is. Often, for me I think. What am I in decade? I've done, I'm over three decades past my primary spiritual abuse and there's still times I go, okay, still rewriting a little bit of this.

Katherine: It went, it went deep.

Connie: Yes, it goes deep. So then I'm thinking the impact on the body.

Most people don't get out of it without sickness, or, or [00:08:00] injury, or, we're connected beings, so physically it can just smack ya. In so many ways, I'm not gonna elaborate, but just to help people think through what is the impact, you know? Then you've got the emotional, psychological, which most people go through.

first. And it's like, right, that's true.

Katherine: Yes. Yeah. I'm probably the one that makes most sense. Yes. But as you said, we're integrated and

Connie: it's going to affect our bodies and our spirits and our whatever we want to call it. So, so the trauma, I mean, you and I are therapists and those listeners who've heard, you know, you, you know, your stuff and Trauma affects our neurological system, our, you know, our brain, our body, our thought process, our emotions.

And so it's just, it just is so extensive and pervasive. I think is another good word. Then you get into the social realm. Yeah. What does it do to families? [00:09:00] Oh, . What does it do to friendships, to community, to parent child relationships, to marriages, to partnerships? I mean the social impact and community. Oh, how I was just telling client this, I think two days ago.

It was yesterday. We were talking about, she's like, I just, I'm trying to sort out how to get community. And I could tell by how she was talking about it, there was kind of this framework, like, I'm the only one. Why, why, why is this so hard for me? I'm sure other people have it together. There was kind of this underlying implication.

And I said, you just need to know something. Do you know, I have this conversation almost daily. Wow. With my clients. What? How? You're not the only one. No! Please! Rebuilding, especially if you've been raised in the church, [00:10:00] Rick, the, okay, we all know on this podcast. What the toxic streams that run through organized religion.

We're clear on that. But I'm telling you, for better and for worse, they do community like nobody else.

Katherine: Yeah, and that's just the reality of like how to find that type of organic community. Oh! Side of the church that that I think that's probably the biggest grief for me. And then for so many people How do I get that that's the part I miss the most

Connie: besides trauma recovery I would say community especially if we're talking about thriving when people are finally Starting to put their head up above A little bit and look around to see the devastation.

That's one of the first questions and it's one of the hardest. So if Those listeners If you guys are struggling to say, how do I do? Community you are not alone. It is [00:11:00] like one of the core themes after trauma recovery I would say it's number two of saying how do I get the social support and the community?

Resources that I used to have in a church because it is what Organized religion does for the positive. It, it provides consistent meeting places, a common worldview, and a common purpose you're working toward. And I feel like those three things are just in reflection over three decades of trying to sort all this through.

Those are the three things I've come down to. A lot of organizations have one or two of those, but the power is all three. And it, This consistent meeting time, again, the consistent meeting time, the common world, commonly held worldview, and doing something, making something together, you know, creating something together.

Oh my gosh, like, it's a powerhouse, I think in a very positive way. [00:12:00] We all know it can go very toxic and all that, but there's also we, we continue our, I think our souls continue to look for that when we say, I can't do that thing anymore or in that way. Even if you stay in an organized religion in a church, almost everybody I know says, Oh, my relationship with church is completely different.

Like it used to be everything. Okay. So we're getting all. Yeah. The community topic, the damage is so huge and then it can damage things like your finances. All can wipe out your finances to go through religious abuse or to be religious abuse or either one and then you've got career. It can even shift career paths for people.

And so my hand, yes, right. Exactly. My career. Yeah. Oh, totally. I would never have gone into this field without without my abuse. Not never, but highly unlikely. Honestly. So, so all these different domains of [00:13:00] life, it can. It can determine where you live, you could make up and have to have a move. So I just want to just to be able to bring all that in and say, you know, the impact is monumental.

Right.

Katherine: And when you said at the beginning, just like addressing that spiritual part, I think that for even folks who have experienced it we'll kind of do this like compartmentalizing thing of like, it's just, I just need to figure out that part and like what I believe now. And, and then maybe, or even compartmentalizing it and like, okay, I am done with God and I'm done with church and I'm moving on.

But then not recognize all the other places that that is impacting and try to address that one compartment of spirituality. And so I'm very thankful to you for pointing out all of the ways that this can impact us and that we can't just compartmentalize and just say the right [00:14:00] spiritual thing.

Connie: Yeah, we can't and we can't compartmentalize any of them. Even even when you talk about mental. You know, you and I are therapists. When we talk about the mental emotional realm, you can't compartmentalize that because we're hooked to physical bodies and we're hooked to worldviews and existential ideas and money and it's like, no, you know, whatever it is, that part alone, if that, if our brains and neurological system take that hard to hit, it's going to have, it's going to have bleed over into other domains.

And so, yes, but I totally agree often. Yeah. Because that's how our brains are trained to think all spiritual, to be very compartmentalized and say the spiritual is the most important. And I think that's, I think that's fine to think that, but it's not the only. You know, and, and to say, Oh, I'm just going to figure out we can cuss on here, right?

Yes. In the spiritual, I'm thinking, I'm just going to say it in the [00:15:00] spiritual realm, get it gathered there. We'll just make everything. Okay. It's like, Oh. You've taken a lot harder hit than just a spiritual issue and that's huge. I'm not minimizing it. I'm just saying it's, it does not stand alone, which is what exactly what you're saying.

Katherine: Yeah. And then I also appreciate you highlighting the financial part too, because I think that that's a. a place that is sort of a hidden impact of it. And, you know, maybe your career and you like switch jobs or you get a new job or you switch careers or you move or

Connie: you or might have to make a physical move.

Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. Or you, you didn't, or your job wasn't impacted and you weren't like on staff at a church or something and you were still able to do your job. But then. The physical impact that leads to potentially having to go on meds or, or getting ill, as you mentioned, or having to go to therapy and pay [00:16:00] for therapy.

Like, I mean, I just think of like how much money I've spent on therapy in a decade. I'm like, I could have bought a house with that money.

Connie: So

Katherine: much money that I am very. Believe was very well spent. I don't regret spending it. But at the same time, it's like that. That is a massive one of the reasons. Yeah.

And one of the reasons by tears of Eden, we offer our support groups for free because there are so many other things that people have to spend money on to recover. We don't want to give you another thing that you have to spend money on in order to recover. So yeah, I really appreciate you highlighting, highlighting all of those things for us.

What are some of the initial steps that you have seen people take in that healing journey? Common, common things that people will do. Once they have come out of this really horrendous experience. What are some of the steps?

Connie: Oh, that's a [00:17:00] great question. Well, you know, I'm a therapist. And so 1 of them is they're coming to therapy is 1 of them.

And, you know, and let me say something. I truly don't believe that therapy is the only way to heal. I truly don't. I think there are people. And there are resources and there are online resources. There are so many things that can help us heal. And a lot of times people go, Oh Connie, you know that person.

Oh my gosh, they so need to go to therapy. And, you know, and, and I'll be like, I need therapy. Yes, exactly. Well, I, I see why you're saying that. Yes, indeed. But, but really, There's also, therapy is one piece of a pie in healing, so, and sometimes it's a really essential pie, and part of the piece of the pie, and sometimes it's not that [00:18:00] essential a piece, sometimes people do a really good job of doing their own work using other resources, so what I see is people, you know, what they start doing, part of it is they start actually processing their own story in some way or another, so They're like, okay, what, what just happened to me?

Like, I know I was just in an explosion or an avalanche, whatever we want to call it. But, like. What happened? How did it happen? How did it happen to me? What happened? A lot of times it's not even clear what exactly took place. All I know, I'm bleeding out an artery and I don't know exactly what happened.

Was, was I in a car wreck? Or was it a tornado? Or was it an avalanche? Or how did I get here? So I think processing this story is, [00:19:00] is another thing that people really start doing when they Just like survive the first initial Blow and saying either I'm distancing myself or I'm getting out or whatever form that takes.

I think those are a couple really big things right off the top. They start and to heal and thrive. They start having to make connections with other people who get it. Somehow, there may not even fully be other survivors, although I think that's super helpful and healing, but at the beginning, it just may be somebody who has a good sense and and will

Katherine: validate.

That was a big deal. Yes,

Connie: that was really painful. Yes, exactly. And that was traumatizing and. Wow, how did you survive that the validation feels like such and and they and I think most people in some way or another start getting educated about it [00:20:00] and that's the answering what happened and I know my book I always say I wrote to me at 25 years old I wrote saying what girl what did you need to understand that you had no clue about that would have Facilitated your healing instead of taking a decade to think I was going to survive the resources we have now.

It's like, you can't speed up the process, but you can help it and aid it and keep from getting from. Infected you know, re traumatized. There's certain things you can do to help healing progress. Well, and I didn't have a lot of that. So that definition of what happened, how was I vulnerable? I'm a strong, yeah, I'm a strong cognitive person.

How did, how did this happen to me? I'm a leader. How did this happen? So, you know, all of those things, I think sorting out [00:21:00] the story, getting validation from other people who go, whose eyes get wide and they're like, What did you go through? And especially when you've got a whole community that's basically saying, it's your fault.

You know, the whole, if you leave a community, the whole community is like, Hmm, your problem, it's your fault if it's an abusive system. And

Katherine: that's a lot of people saying that about you.

Connie: Oh, you're, sometimes your whole world. I mean, everybody that matters. As saying that you're Paul and I remember telling the story to other people, including my second date with my husband, who is now my husband.

There was some good trauma dumping that happened there anyway. And honestly, it was also some important information both of us needed to know. And. And so I remember telling him and him being a pastor, a former pastor, he looked right at me and said, that was abuse. Nice. Oh, there were probably some abusive [00:22:00] elements, but I was, you know, it was my issue.

I made some bad choices. Oh my gosh, thank God for my husband, you know, who was like calling bullshit. Yeah, this was abuse. Yeah. And to tell other people outside of the system and watch their eyes get wide and say, they did what to you? They did. And those people who don't know my story, I was sexually abused by a pastor and then blamed by the church and.

kicked out for it. That's the short story. And so, you know, to hear people, to tell my story, not in those words, actually taking much more responsibility. For what happened and then look at me and say they did what and I'm like, why are you not saying? Why did you do that? Yeah And it's just so important to have those other people So those are some of the immediate things that come to mind when I think of what people are doing I'm sure there's a much better list, but those are some immediate things when

Katherine: people are processing their story in the aftermath?

What [00:23:00] percentage of folks or what? range of folks It's that process their story, but not just the story of the abuse, because I'm thinking of another domain that this might resuscitate is, is your past and like, Oh, what happened in your childhood that like brought you to this place and how. How are, I mean, I know that that happened for me of, of knowing that the trauma that I was experiencing in the church, because it was so similar to what I experienced in my family, that I was severely, not only traumatized in real time, but I was also being re traumatized, and having to balance that.

So, yeah, what percentage of people were, were it impacts their entire life story, not just that part?

Connie: I, I don't see Always, never, every, but I will say 99. 9%. Yes.

Katherine: I'm not going to say every person, but I'm going to say most people.

Connie: Yeah, pretty much every person. Yeah. Part of it [00:24:00] is because we bring, this is part of brain science, is we bring our paradigm, our neuropathways for positive and for negative to every situation we encounter.

And so if we're, if, If power and control dynamics are already familiar, and if you're raised in conservative religion, they are. They can't not be. And the more conservative and fundamentalist, in my view, the more power and control dynamics come into play in the institution and the world view, those are deeply familiar and viewed as positive.

And so you, how would you not step foot? Yeah, into a system that loves power and control and eventually misuses it. And so to me, and you don't understand those dynamics. I mean, you just don't, you don't get that when you're [00:25:00] raised like that. This is, you know, the Bible says, God says, the pastor says it's, it is.

What's considered by everybody to be incredibly positive, helpful you know, the right thing. And so to bring that, the, all those neural pathways that form a worldview and you put trauma, most of us, 99. 9 percent of us have either trauma with a capital T or a lowercase T in childhood and adolescence, you don't survive this life without.

Massive jolts as a child or adolescent. So then you create worldviews. Around those, you're bringing them into the next, if they're not processed well, and most of us take our lifetime to process these well, and that's not discouraging, that's just realistic, but we usually don't have it all processed at 20 years old, and, no, we don't have it all processed then, and so we're bringing even previous trauma, and the [00:26:00] familiar feel of how that got there, and, So, yes, we're, it is, I have yet to sit with a person for very long and say, Oh, this is the sole thing we're talking about.

I don't even remember ever doing that. It's like, okay, we're talking about this, but they start saying, Oh, my gosh, this was a replication of this situation in my childhood. Yes, it was. It's what we do. And there's no, there's no shame in that. It's just what, it's how our brains work for better and for worse.

This is, I mean, you know, us therapists deal with pathology, but our brain has also given us all kinds of survival tools, how we cope through all of that. So,

Katherine: yeah, and those things can sometimes even help to like the process of just like recognizing that something is helping us recognize something is wrong or helping us helping us wake up.

And that that those experiences are can also be just really Can be helpful and [00:27:00] and our resources that we can tap into as we are in that healing process, and I don't want to skip over the healing process as we jump into thriving so I just want to create a disclaimer of like when we talk about thriving.

This is, this is like. A way to just provide some future hope. Not as a way to put pressure. We're not saying you need to be here or you need to be here at a certain time.

Connie: In fact, some people shouldn't be here yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want them to arrive yet. Right. Right. You know, it's, that would, you know, and I use physical metaphors all the time, but that's like, you know, when I was going through cancer and treatment saying you need to start training for a marathon girl.

No, no, it's not

Katherine: that's the need to get through your day. That's what

Connie: exactly survive today. Make sure you're getting something in your stomach. Make sure your nausea meds, you know, whatever it [00:28:00] means. It's not time to do a marathon, but we're talking about a level. Of robust health in the future that's possible and that's where I just yeah, I, I remember at the retreat.

I said, how many of you know, I said, how, how does us talking about thriving land or something to that effect because I knew there were going to be people that are going, Oh, shut up. I don't want to keep flagging. I'm like, and, and good for you. That's right. Because your system is telling you this is premature and.

And just take it as that. Say, yeah, I'll hear this, you know, have, listen to these two yapping about thriving. But I also think it could be, it's a hopeful beacon too, to say, you're going to be able to. And, and some of you listening, I know are, are either on the verge or starting to say, I think I'm past survival mode and it will be your time to hear some of this.

Yeah. And,

Katherine: and one of the, the markers [00:29:00] of trauma is feeling stuck. And have this vision of like, it will not always be this way. There is a time in the future where you will laugh again, and you will thrive. That can help unstuck us. And that's the point of this. This episode not to say you should drive. No.

Why aren't you thriving yet? Absolutely not. No, no.

Connie: I'm so glad we're talking about that because yeah, it's like, no, some of you, and I think it'd be, it's great for people even right now to take a breath and say, how do I feel about this topic? What? And most of the time, what mixed feelings? It used to, we're not one way or the other, but what mixed feelings do I have about this topic?

And to just, you know, welcome all of those feelings about it and, and honor them as we talk,

Katherine: and if you, and if you feel like. This is where you, you leave us and you need to [00:30:00] pause the episode and come back in a few months or a few years. You're, you can do, you can do that.

Connie: Please do that. Exactly.

Katherine: Absolutely.

With that, what's thriving

Connie: and how do we get there? What is thriving? Well, you know, there's all kinds of ways to define it. But of course, I,

Marker

Connie: a bit of a nerd, you know, just kind of, I'm thinking, what is the definition? And I went to, you know, some good old dictionary, standard dictionary definitions, and I like them.

To grow or develop vigorously. Isn't that a great word? Oh, I love it. To prosper or flourish. Oh, I like the word flourish. Yes, isn't that beautiful? To do particularly well under specified conditions. That's another one I loved about. Oh, that's Yes to do particularly well under specified, you know, because then that gives us options to say [00:31:00] Kinda like a plant.

What specific plant food does that plant need? Does it need more light? Less light? Does it need more water, less lot water and to, to allow ourselves, I think the individuality of healing and then thriving needs to be honored. Mm-Hmm. It is not a prescription. Okay. I mean, how often Catherine, you know, this happens.

My, my clients are like, how long is it gonna take me to get better? Give me, give me a time frame. Okay, we've been doing this

Katherine: for a while. Let's, let's

Connie: Yeah, let's First of all, with the physical body, it's much easier to do that, and there are still, you know, doctors still fudge and say, well, you could be up and around in three days, or it could be up to like three months, you know?

I mean, there's, even in the physical body, There are those, this doesn't always everybody, everybody's body doesn't do it the same and you put that in a [00:32:00] brain in a, in a neurological system and the variables are huge. So I just want everybody to, you know, be able to say, this is my journey. I mean, the downside is we can't say, okay, process your story and month one.

Do this in month two, you know, it doesn't work like that. First of all life happens, right? I mean, yeah So and so to come back and just honor This is my path and something you said earlier to we often feel very stuck in trauma recovery But most of the time and I will say this is most I would say but I would say 19 out of 20 Times when my clients say I'm stuck.

I'm like, oh, okay That's kind of that's important to look at are you stuck? So let's take a look. So are you? Exactly where you were a year ago. Oh, no. Not, oh gosh, [00:33:00] no. Oh. Then maybe this isn't stuck. They hate this. Cause, especially the ones who've been with me a while. I feel stuck. Don't say it. I know. Yeah, don't say it, because it's just taking longer than we want to.

Yes, we would like to feel better tomorrow, thank you very much. It's like, so, so, to honor the fact that this takes time, and often if we're not moving quick enough, we say, I'm stuck. And I'm like, it feels like stuck, but let's look at actual progress and sometimes I'll say, are you exactly the same place you were even three months ago.

No, Connie, I'm not, you know, I mean, they're like, whatever, but I want to honor the stuck feeling because it is there, but let's not call it actual stuck because that's actually not where we're at. So how did we get here? Catherine,

Katherine: we were talking about, Oh, I don't know, but I was really chocked up.

Connie: [00:34:00] Good.

Good. So I just want to go driving. And

Katherine: how do we get there? What is, yeah, what does driving look like? And then how do we, how do we get there? That was the original

Connie: question. Good. Okay. So what's thriving? I think that looks different too, for different people. And it's going to look different than it did before.

That's the other thing. I think we need to accept and kind of reconcile. In ourself, sometimes it is going to look like like the name of the treat was retreat was laugh again, and it's like eventually laughter needs to be another part of your life again, the ability to laugh hard and laugh freely, but even the laughter and what it's about the texture may feel different than it did before.

And that's not all bad. Most people when they are really starting to thrive will say. Of [00:35:00] course, I hate what I had to go through, but I actually like me better now. Mm hmm. What, what bigger success is there than that? To me, that's, and I know that's my story. It took me 10 years in a very dramatic moment. I write an epilogue in my book, a very dramatic moment.

For me to go, Oh, I like who I am and not that it was right that it happened, but there's, I think it was evil that what happened to me and it should never happen to anybody, but there was a part of me that said that has made me who I am and my gratitude for that was profound and I find that's pretty consistent and so it's maybe different.

And it likely is going to be different, thriving, than what it used to look like. But I also think thriving is going to have greater dimension, and wealth, and color, than it did before. And that, [00:36:00] that's, to me, that's the beauty of suffering handled well. Like you actually get in suffering. I am not Again, don't hear me saying woohoo for suffering No, a lot of it is needless and should never be there and I don't wish it on anyone that said I feel like beauty can come from that and Healing and not just okay.

I'm better like, okay. I got over it But a sense of oh who am I now that I really love that I didn't have Parts of me before that are here.

Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a a hurdle to get past this like reality of like, yes, this should have never happened. Yeah. Yes. And, and, and this is a, this is a churchy word, this is a Jesus word, but it's also just a word.

I see that rather than like, Oh, justification for what happened or a reason for what happened and rather like a redemption. [00:37:00] Yes. Get to step into. And now we get to claim and we get to say this happened. Yes. But despite it, this is now who I am. Yes. Yes. Resiliency of the survival spirit and the human spirit that is ours to access.

Yes. And that abuser or abusive system does not get the final word.

Connie: No. We do. That's right. And that where I love that's so funny. I I was thinking I hope she's gonna use the word redemption Because you know the church has Hijacked the word and stolen in many ways and made it its own domain its own territory.

It's not There's something beautiful about something that word Yes, they don't own it and for us to say no something could be redeemed something Some beauty could come out of something horrible. And I think that is, that is apart [00:38:00] from and across religious perspective. That's, that's just one of those, that's a, that's an existential life thing.

And it's like, let it, let it, let it be there. So, you know, part of, we talked about this at the retreat, Catherine, but part of thriving, first of all, I think, to, we need to see our all or nothing assumptions. Around thriving, we, we often, I think, especially when we're hurting and trying to heal and trying to survive, we see thriving as a light switch.

That's going to pop on 1 day. And, oh, now I'm thriving and even as I say that, most of us who live past. Probably 18 years old, we'll say probably doesn't work quite that way, but it's an underlying assumption that it's going to be. All better, that all domains of [00:39:00] life will be thriving at the same time, and that it is a steady, straight line toward thriving.

This, this, this, these steps, and you're on it. It is a crazy, twisted, three dimensional graph. And it's, you know, if we're saying straight line on a graph toward thriving, It's a mess. It's a snarled mess to get there. And there are going to be areas, I would venture to say that even the people who are hurting the most listening to this right now have areas of their life that they are actually thriving.

They may not be willing to look real carefully at that because it might feel invalidating, which it's not but, but to be able to actually there are certain areas of my life that are kind of on track. I mean, my husband and I started dating [00:40:00] fully recommended six months after I was went through the abuse.

It actually was exactly what it should have been for us. Yeah, again, not necessarily recommended. But. We, that part of my life was very beautiful while I was bleeding out arteries in so many other domains of my life. Does that make my time with, you know, my courtship and my, even that has a lot of baggage to it, our dating years, whatever, you know, dating time less valuable?

Or less than? No, it was actually quite a shining light. Does it make my other suffering less? No, it was horrific. And so, just to, just to look at that and to say, it's not an all or nothing proposition. And it does to hold that lightly and accept the fact that It's, it's not going to be an [00:41:00] all or nothing where all of a sudden one day life is just going to be all easier and all better.

Yeah.

Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. And I think I really appreciated that visual picture that you provided us at the retreat where you gave us domains on a piece of paper and it was just like a bunch of different blocks of different domains, family, social life, work life, spiritual life, all these different domains. Yeah.

And, and you said something to the effect of you can be thriving and have a few of these domains that aren't thriving. Like you can be thriving in general and then have a few domains that aren't going so well. And that was like a relief to me because I think I pictured thriving as everything is going great all the time.

Connie: Right. Well, I have 12. I think of this the cat out. We're talking about I give up 12 domains and these are very flexible. These were [00:42:00] my domains. And I said, I remember saying that retreat and people can say, that's not even a domain for me, or I got different domains. And that's great. But these 12 domains, let me.

Let me go through them real quick because I want to kind of talk about this. Is that okay?

Katherine: Yeah, and then maybe I could get, if you have like a PDF or something, I can put it in the newsletter. If they, if I remember, I probably won't, but no, I have

Connie: it. I have it. I couldn't get that to you. Yeah. So one domain is spiritual health when they're getting, I kind of referred to some of these earlier physical health.

Emotional mental health, of course, isn't that great that I'd forget that one emotional mental health. That's the third. And then it in relationships is the domain of family, your significant other friendships. That's huge. And that can include community like we're talking fun and recreation creativity.

Excuse me creativity adventure are all part of the fun and recreation and then I have a set that I don't know if anybody else uses, but I [00:43:00] love learning and skill building. I loved I'm a learner my heart. So I love like, what am I doing in that domain? My environment my home, my office, my car.

How's that? You know, how are things there in my environment? And then. I've got finances. How are my finances? That's a domain. Work and career. How am I making a living? How's that going? That domain. And then I have a, my last domain is life contribution. And that, that, of course these areas overlap greatly.

You know, they're not separate, but just for the sake of sorting. So my life contribution, what do I do just to contribute to this world? You know, and those are ways you do it in other domains as well, but I have it for me because well, I'm in a better place Yes, and I'm an Enneagram three So I forgive me even now so it just [00:44:00] is so when I look at all of these domains I have never That I recall in my whole life on a scale from 0 to 10, 10 being best ever, 5 being neutral, 0 being in the toilet.

I have never been above between a 6 and a 10 in all these domains at one given time. There's always a path, there's always, it's a

Katherine: neutral. But you would say you're still thriving. You would say. Yes. Yeah. Even if that's not, not everything is a

Connie: 10. Exactly. I, I've got a domain right now that is chronically painful.

There's some stuff family wise, chronically, like, ow, like if it, if it gets to a 3. 5, it's a good day in that domain. So it's a painful domain. I want to honor that. Like, yeah, that is [00:45:00] real and it hurts. And it doesn't hurt less because several other parts of my life are actually above six and, and thriving.

And so just to give that example, I think about a time in my life when I was going through cancer where multiple domains Were like, finances, physical health, career, trying to keep together a private practice, all these domains were like in distress. And the friend domain was just freaky rich. It was just like, Oh, I would just add such gratitude around that.

So a lot of domains in that time of life, it was. Below a five, but the, the upside was the friendships were just so beautiful and good. So I guess. I want to take away the illusion that thriving means everything is in the positive. [00:46:00]

Katherine: Yeah. As we wrap up, if someone is listening to this and they're like, Okay, I think I'm curling out of that survival, and I'm, you know, my head's kind of coming up and I'm able to just maybe see a little bit of sunshine.

What, what are some recommendations, resources that you would recommend to that person to start moving towards coming out of that survival space?

Connie: One of the first things I can think of, and there again, I don't want this to be triggering because it can have some baggage with it, but this is brain science. This is not religion. And that is gratitude. I think reinforcement of what is actually going well. First of all, to allow validation for all the stuff that's hurting, like, we have this Western mindset that it's got to be one cancels [00:47:00] out the other.

It's both and, that's life. But to go with gratitude, no shoulds here, what should I be grateful for? Get that out of your head. But what are you actually grateful for and if you're moving toward that thriving, I think that can really reinforce it I have a practice every morning of writing anywhere from six to ten things that i'm thankful for right then no shoulds That's the big rule.

Should I be grateful for that? If I have to ask the question, it's not going on the list like So, no, but what am I actually, and some days that means I am actually grateful for a warm house. It's supposed to have a cold snap here in the Northwest over the next couple of days. And I'm like, okay, I actually am grateful for this warm house.

Great. So to, to keep facilitating that, that's one of the first things that comes to mind. And voicing those neural pathways, a traumatized brain has deeply rutted, [00:48:00] painful and negative neural pathways. It just has such, there's such ruts of just the anxiety of waiting for the next shoe to fall, to, to, for the next bomb to go off, and to start saying, I'm going to reinforce.

We're not getting rid of the risk of hard things happening, it's real. But to say, actually at the same time, these positive things are very true. They're just as true as the negative. This is a little quote fight I get in with my clients sometimes. Okay, it's not a fight. But to say, you know, you're saying all this negative is true.

I agree, it is. And even the possibilities of negative are the truth. I can't say that wouldn't happen. But what about all the positive as well? It's an integrating of those rather than it's not Pollyanna. It's not rose colored glasses. It's an integrating [00:49:00] of actual reality and our brains say, Nope, only the negative is true.

And I'm like, let's challenge that because that eventually becomes unhelpful. For our brains, and so somehow reinforcing telling people about the positive, the ones who are also validating the negative, not ones who are pushing you,

Katherine: you're going to celebrate with you and can hold the both

Connie: hand with you.

Exactly, without toxic positivity, we do not want that, but so to keep moving there, I think social, you know, we talked about the challenges of. Friendships and community both of those. And I think those are a little different because you can have really good individual friendships without a full sense of robust community.

Yeah, but those things help reinforce positive brain function. I mean, we just do better. unisolated. We do better connected with other humans. And so those are some, and there again, be gentle, [00:50:00] take time. It's just not going to happen overnight. And that's, it's a sometimes grueling road back, but worth it.

It's worth the time and effort to say, Okay, well that friendship didn't go exactly like I wanted. I'm going to keep trying to create and develop positive connections. And I think also we're talking about spiritual, you cannot push this, but I want to give hope. I'm 30 years down. And so I feel like I have this perspective and I started what they called deconstructing 20 years ago.

I didn't know what was happening to me, my spiritual life, my brain, nobody had a name for it back then. I was just freaking out going, I'm pulling back, I'm pulling back. Is this bad? Oh my gosh, am I going to hell? Ah, you know, and I started. Questioning deeply all this stuff. So I've been on this process a long time and there are months and years that you are going to live in limbo in that in, and it's, it is [00:51:00] so damn uncomfortable.

It is. It is so uncomfortable and it is so essential that you do not rush through it. Yes, cut the process short. Yeah, but let me say sit with it in integrity you do finally come out on the other side not not with certainty I don't think certainty, but I think I can say with some solid ground to stand on I think that's a better way to put it just personally whatever that is for you you start If you don't circumvent the process, if you don't, you know, truncate the process, then you can move on eventually to go, Oh, I think I'm finding some solid ground.

For me, that was years of limbo. It was unpleasant. It isn't for everybody. My brain works slower. It had several decades to rewrite. So it took a long time, but it was so worth it to say, no, you are, there's hope for [00:52:00] some solid ground existentially slash spiritually, not they're going to, I'm not, I'm not even interested in certainty anymore but a certain definition of who I am and how I relate to life in the divine.

Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, I feel like this, this conversation has been kind of like a, it feels like a little pep talk. I feel inspired and yeah, just, encouraged. And I want this episode to end January spiritual abuse awareness month as just kind of like hope, but not hope of trying to put pressure on anyone to be here, but just to say.

One day, one day, you're gonna be able to laugh again. One day, this limbo, five years, ten years, whatever, you're gonna look back and it's gonna be over, like this part will be over, or this, this, this. Season of

Connie: this part will be over. [00:53:00] Yes, exactly.

Katherine: Right. Yes. This has been so wonderful. I always, always enjoy talking to you as

Connie: Catherine.

Yes.

Katherine: And the end of the episode, let folks know how to get in touch with you or find. Stuff that you are, you are working on.

Connie: Yes. So let me get my book out. So I remember the exact title. The title traumatized by spiritual abuse, courage, hope and freedom for survivors. That's it. And then another subtitle is discover the cultures and systems of religious abuse and reclaim your personal power.

So that's on the front of the book. That gives a bit, a bit of a Idea a range of what is in the book and get it on Amazon. So Connie Baker my website has almost. Everything you need on there Connie A. Baker, C O N N I E A as in Ann, my middle name, then baker, B A K E R dot com, Connie A. Baker dot com.

It's got resources, videos, [00:54:00] probably has this podcast, a podcast I was on before with you. So, resources for people to listen to or look up and, yeah, I think those are the main I'm I'm on Facebook. Come on. Oh, I do have here. This is important. I do have a group of probably I think it's around right above 1000 people right now and online private.

Yeah, I didn't. Oh, good. Yeah. And and I post regularly. And just to right now I'm giving a lot of questions for people to process their story. So that is overcoming Yeah, yeah, yeah. Overcoming religious abuse community. And that's on Facebook and I'm also on Instagram and Connie a baker is usually the handles on those to

Katherine: find it.

Yes. All right. Thank you so much. I will link as many things as possible in the show notes for folks. And thank you so much for being here and

Connie: always, always a privilege. Thank you, Catherine. Thank you.